How Important is Worshipping?

[Sheep]

I have a good friend who says he is a believer. Only thing is that he works 2 jobs to provide for his family. He does not go to church because he has to work. He pretty much works 7 days a week with no days off. How important is worshipping the Lord God? Should he make time to worship? He said that many years ago he used to be a Jehovah's Witness. I told him about the Mormon's and Jehovah's Witness. Can someone be a believer and not worship God at church?

[SERay]

Sure… a person can be a believer and not worship God in body of believers, albeit backslidden by the testimony of their life. I had a neighbor who said he was Presbyterian, but lived a riotous lifestyle of drugs and violence. Like a cheap name tag, he was trusting his families religious affiliation as a covering for his soul.

Worship is a heart matter, meaning, if I want to worship God, it is because I have a deep sense of adoration for Him as ’Abba’ Father. If someone doesn’t take time for communion with God within the collective of His people, they are only deceiving themselves to think they are abiding in Him. Hebrews 10:25 tells us not to forsake the assembling together as the manner of some. All this for good reason. Without a community of believers as support, we will cave into the world quickly and fail in the walk. No possible way to succeed the path alone. Even Christ had gathered around him his twelve, despite Judas being the Devil among them. Christ, the Son of God, sought out a support system to assist with His the walk in human form. If Christ needed the support of others, how much more we?

It is quite one thing to have a physical limitation and wish with all your heart to worship with the body, but be bed ridden. It is quite another to be able to attend God’s house, but choose rather to skirt the spiritual aspects of life. The former will be pardoned by God, the later will be without excuse. In summation, those who claim to be in Christ, but forsake the assembling together are back-slidden or apostate and potentially speeding along toward eternal demise. Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 13:5 for us to “examine ourselves” to see if we are EVEN in the faith. To prove it to ourselves daily that we were indeed traveling the path of salvation. Similar to us checking our vehicle’s gas gauge constantly, we should be even more concerned about our spiritual content level. Paul was one of the most revered apostle of the original church, however he still feared that somehow he might be disqualified at the last minute and forfeit his crown in glory. Wise counsel that none should revere his station as a success prematurely. Whereas, Lucifer was the covering Cherub, the morning star, the most elite created being in heaven. Privileged to have unique access to the presence of God. Yet, in an instant, lost his position due to narcissism, the deadliest of prides.

We need to remember that the danger of drifting is ever present. Hebrews 2:1-2 states that it is possible to drift away if we neglect our Christian walk, and goes on it chapter 3 to say that it is possible to develop an evil heart of unbelief as a result of neglect. It is a given that Christ's Spirit resides in Christians, unless they have become "disqualified". The King James says "ye be reprobates" or given back to the old nature, and following the deceitfulness of its desires. Such is the path away from Christ, moving toward the precipice of falling away, even unto forsaking eternal life.

"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked." 2 Peter 3:17

I encourage people to meditate on Ezekiel 18:24-26 also Ezekiel 33:18 to comprehend this hard teaching. 1 Chronicles 28:9 is stern and to the point. We are certainly under Grace, not law, however, the precepts of God do not change. Paul understood this and tried with much effort to relay to all his readers how eternally critical it is to make sure our calling according to what Christ and the prophets taught.

[Watchman]

Not Forsaking The Assembling Together

Dear Sir

I understand that we should not forsake the assembling of believers but:

we sing unscriptural songs when we should be worshiping in Spirit and TRUTH,
we preach a modern gospel instead of the True Gospel,
we teach the doctrines of man instead of the Commandments of God,
we've turned church into an entertainment center instead of A House of Prayer,
we teach greed instead of biblical prosperity.
we esteem men, ministries and church's over the Lord Jesus.
we have gimmicks and personality's but not the Anointing.
we obey men but not God.
we speak great things but produce little.
we make disciples of people but not Jesus Christ.
we love in word but not in deed.
we defend ministers and doctrine's but not the Truth.

How do you not forsake fellowship when these things are rampant now.

Help please

[SERay]

Amen, and Amen brother Lane.

Your words are true and proven. There is a great apostasy and finding a good church is like seeking out a pearl from a muddy stream. Since many Christians are not grounded in the proper understanding of the scripture and the truth, they have no earthly idea they are participating in the end time departure, a spiritual tsunami called the apostasy.

I searched intensely for five years to find a genuine body of Christians, whose lamp stand has not been removed. Within two days of AGAIN praying intensely about finding a Christ honored church home, through a string of very unusual circumstances, God lead me to His choice at this time. I now attend a church plant from Calvary Chapel founding by Chuck Smith in Costa Mesa, California. http://www.calvarychapel.com/church-details.cfm?ChurchID=100232

It is a solid bible teaching church, Horizon Indy East. No worldly antics, no unscriptural songs, no entertainment center, seeks to serve others instead of a philosophical church vision to multiply the apostasy. Certainly no such thing as a perfect church, but resonates with my Spirit against the Word of God. They do exist, but are very hard to find. In my residential area here in Indiana, many of them match the list you made. Either fully liturgical or emergent, mystical, worldly and departing from the original model as revealed in scripture. I outlined this trend in my article published in 2005: https://www.discerningtruth.org/show...merging+church

My counsel is keep seeking, keep praying and don’t cease conforming yourself unto the likeness of Christ. Despite the spiritual famine many are experiencing, fresh wells of refreshing still can be found.

God knows your heart and longing, Cyril. Despite currently finding yourself a wandering soul seeking a place to rest and grow, God is in control and will open the door when you seek for it with ALL your heart. Knock or rap with intensity, and the door will open. Seek, with striving and faint not, for His arm is not too short to draw you unto His preserved body.

Update 2014: Since getting married in 2010, My wife and child moved away from Horizon/Calvary Chapel to serve in at an inner-city church whose main purpose is helping the destitute, homeless and troubled. No offence with the Calvary Chapel network, only the Lord led us otherwise to a rather primitive work, hands-on without any traditional buffers. Instead of attending church and then later going out, we have church with those we serve, together.

[Watchman]

Thank you for your prompt reply and encouragement.

I am learning that God has called me to obey Him even if it causes me to lose position and friendships in the church.
Many times I voice concern about the Benny Hinns and the modern way of doing church. Some have distanced them selves from me. But God is good. Someone has to speak the truth.
If I see or hear anything that is not scriptural then I pray.

God bless

[SERay]

Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn share common views on the prosperity gospel from the name-it claim-it camps. The problem is, these leaders are gaining all the prosperity while teaching world-based philosophies under the canopy of the scripture.

Candy coated pills go down the easiest, and the recipient is fully under the influence not understanding they are indeed intoxicated by false doctrines. You will not be able to convince deluded souls who are unstable in their thinking, that they are in error. Everyone thinks they think right, this is the HUMAN condition. However, the Word of God rightly divides truth from error and can bring a stumbling soul unto accountability.

I would guess that your groups philosophies are being sculpted under the teachings of men verses a steadfast diet in the Word of God? One can easily busy themselves with church attendance, good deeds, praise assemblies, prayer groups, intense book readings, yet neglect the God inspired Scriptures that keeps our souls in alignment. Neglect the Word of God and spiritual error sits ready, just behind the next door. Another grave error a person can commit is to ever exonerate or adore any human leader. To revel in fallen man will lead to the fall of those who do. The powers of darkness open wide to deceive those who run headlong into the pit of deception, and it swallows a multitude. Only one deserves any adoration or honor, Christ Jesus our redeemer alone.

You are being lifted up in prayer by many, and prayer that the blinders upon the departed be pulled away!

[Michael]

Doing Right and Wrong Comes

I agree with you! I have seen this happen in the recent turn of events at my currrent church. I have been involved with the pastors in trying to bring about biblocallly based activities. Due conflict in the church, A few weeks ago we felt the Lord call us to prayer and the group spent a week in prayer. We met by either meeting nightly, going over to the church at noon or in the evening and pray over it, or pray from home if we could not make it. We had no people from the congregation participate except for those of us in the ministry team (which only included 4 people).

After it was over we held a visioning meeting with the congregation and found out that most of the the people in the church, mostly elders, do not want to PRAY - HOW CAN A CHRISTIAN NOT WANT TO PRAY, nor do they want to do any kind of otreach.

In any event, these recent events came to a climax when the church board petitioned the district to allow them to conduct a vote to remove our pastors. In reality the vote was not the result of wrongdoing of the pastors, it is due to the fact that the congregation does not want to grow the church, are uncomfortable with each other and would rather leave things as they are regarding church programs and outreach - which is zilch. They are of the opinion that people should see the church and come in, that should be enough because they have built this nice big congregation next to a subdivsion that has a lot of traffic

I was part of their Saturday evening ministry team, we often would go to the church and pray over it, we held prayer meetings at the church for some time before they turned against the pastor. Keep us in your prayers!

[SERay]

What an experience Michael!!!! You are doing it by the book and the people resist. Sounds like a serious case of the elderly playing church. I was raised in a church similar to what you described. If a pastor became too spiritual and ruffled up the comfort zone, “remove the pastor” was the mandate.

As you probably know, there are three types of church government: Congregations, Presbyterian and Episcopal. Congregational governments are doomed to spiritual failure in most cases, because the people control the hierarchy and the pastor is a hireling (puppet of the people). The Episcopal system is of course, how the Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox and Methodist churches operate (among others). Unfortunately, this grew out of the European monarchies, which leaves no room for the local pastor or congregation to follow the Spirits leading. The Presbyterian style of government of the Reformed church puts the polity into the hands of select group of elders (presbytery) who are appointed. They are the absolute power of the church body. This too puts limits on the pastor and congregations ability to follow the Spirits leading. The ideal is no complex bureaucracy, committees, sub-committees, allowing the pastor to be responsible, to work freely under the guidance of the Spirit AFTER being thoroughly tested. Although Elders and deacons should be appointed to help care for the flock, as is the scriptural method, they are servants as is the pastor.

Sounds like your work is done there?

[Scott]

It is hard to find a church that keeps us on our toes. People today want a church that makes them feel warm and fuzzy which will end up being waterdowned truth or non truth. So to become a popular church the pastors start making things easy for people and making them feel comforatable. Jesus spoke of hope and faith and grace, we should take confort in those things, but his messages were never comfortable, they keep you challanged and grounded. So if you find a church that convicts and moves your heart to change and helps you build your relationship with Jesus then you are in the right place. The tough thing to remember is the churches we are in maybe working for the person next to us and it may be helping there relationship with Jesus even though it may not work for us. I agree we need to find the church that helps us, not stumbles us.

We need spirtual prunning and God often times uses the Chuch to do this, so we need the word of God, the worship and the fellowship time with each other to help with this prunning process, and sometimes this prunning is happening to self or its happening to others but we need each other including the pastors/preachers/ministry.

Thanks for sharing good stuff.

[Christopher]

Seeking the word and will of Lord Jesus

I as well as the person noted in the first post have a very difficult work schedule as far as ability to sit in a church at a time when services are normally conducted. I could lay out all my reasons, but I fail to see the point of that due to the fact that someone can always point a finger at you and say "that reason is not good enough". The person who just does not want to get out and go on Sunday vs. the person who has conditions preventing him to attend a church is person is very different as was spoken of here

What I do is this, on Sunday I watch a service from a streaming website along with my personal bible study every day, If I miss the live stream I can always watch it later. The thing that I know I am missing is the live "in person" or "face to face" fellowship with others that share your faith. Finding a decent church that teaches the bible and Jesus is one thing, to find one that teaches the bible and Jesus and gathers at non-traditional hours is another.

I think we need to be careful about putting to much effort in "procedure" then in truly seeking the word and will of Lord Jesus. Jesus spoke of the cup that was shiny and spotless on the outside, but dirty and rotten on the inside.

[SERay]

Is It Necessary to Go to Church?

I concur with you Christopher. My secular employment makes Sunday mornings difficult to attend. I personally am not a regular institutional church attendee, not do I adhere to the traditional precepts of man. Considerably too much tradition forces Christian's into thinking the ritualistic gathering of staged worship is required to be a good Christian. This can easily become religion of the external, lacking faith of the heart. Many of souls will have appeared in church religiously for 50 years, yet after death will hear "Away from me, for I never knew you." Corporate attendance does not equate to God's smile and a stroke of affirmation. Such a persuasion would be a "justified by works" motivation.

For me, it is a priority to read from the Bible some every day, pray and have regular times of worship independently via CD music. However, I do have a core study group in which I belong during one evening a week, who is a melting pot of denominations. An independent fellowship group similar to the H2H movement. It required my sifting through a number of groups and churches, and considerable prayer and tenacity, to find a living organism that represented Christ's purpose.

I too lamented as many, that few biblically grounded Christian group could be found. In my primarily "Emergent Trend" community of churches, I did manage to find more than one quorum of biblically based believers. This is after a search of more than 5 years. Like all living things, the church is an organism, shifting, transitioning, growing or decreasing. Sometimes one will be healthy and then fall ill, some fail. On the other hand, some institutions prosper in attendance, but lack the Spirit. One must be flexible and not conformed to a mentality that would have us stay in a situation that the Holy Spirit has impressed us to move on from. Other times, the Holy Spirit may indeed have us stand fast. Each situation differs in composition, as diverse as people.

Of course, there is the issue of hurt. The spiritual landscape is filled with people who have been hurt by the “church” and therefore the church universal is abstained from as a source of pain. This is not God’s will, nor will it ever be. Personally, I have been hurt, rejected, misunderstood, asked to leave, and on it goes. After 25 years of being a Christian from childhood, I have experienced much at both extremes. I did spend some time separate from the church after a fall out due to error on the part of multiple parties. I can either sit licking my wounds while blaming others and the church, or obey Christ, forgive even if despitefully used, learn the lesson, and get back in there and rub shoulders with the saints. I realize the Lord allows a time of grief, but there comes the time which we must pick up our mats and go back home to His people.

The foundational fact of all this is, it is impossible for anyone to maintain a healthy spiritual core by being a closet Christian. As a body of water must circulate to remain oxygenated less it become poisonious, so do we have to give and receive love from a core group, or become toxic to ourselves and others. This rule isn’t limited to Christianity, it is a precept of humanity. I think of the passage in Hebrews 10:24-25 "And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near."

One of my commentaries read "The reason the meetings of the assembly are not to be neglected is that they provide a communal setting where mutual encouragement and admonition may occur… The entire community must assume responsibility to watch that no one grows weary or becomes apostate. This is possible only when Christians continue to exercise care for one another personally.” – William L. Lane, Hebrews 9-13, Word Biblical Commentary vol. 47B.

This is not an isolated conclusion. In fact, the vast majority of commentators recognize the importance of “mutual encouragement and admonition” when believers gather together. They recognize that the author of Hebrews assumed that this would be the normal behavior for all assemblies of the saints. Even the Apostles' and Nicene Creed place emphasis on this when the later text reads "I believe in the Holy Spirit... the communion of the saints".

Two problems in church life—complacency and arrogance—are addressed in Hebrews 10:24-25. As Christians, our commitment to loving one another and using our gifts can falter because of either. We can become complacent so that we demonstrate very little active love and responsibility for one another. Our Christian existence becomes routine and lifeless. The writer warns us to be thoughtful in these areas. What can we do to stir up our holy zeal and stop being complacent? How can we fan the flames of our faith and service to others back into life? What can you do to help those close to you live a life characterized by love and the charitable giving of self?

If we look carefully at what Hebrew's writer is saying: "Stir one another up to love and good works." He is not saying to stimulate one another up to write esoteric theological treatises, or begin to practice obscure religious liturgies or other "religious" tangents that do not minister to people’s needs. Nor is this prompting the idea of huddling in a corner to become an enraptured student of the scripture unto oneself. Rather, we are told to stir one another up to love, agape love, that magnificent compassion that finds a way to do good in all circumstances. We can’t fulfill the "love" cycle unless we inject ourselves into the lives of others. If we are practicing known sin, we will naturally resist being part of the community.

Arrogance is the second problem addressed in this verse. If we would respond to Christ and minister among believers, we need to abstain not only from complacency, but arrogance also. "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together," we are told. Do not reject and turn your back in arrogant superiority toward other believers. Do not imagine you know so much and are so spiritual that you have advanced beyond the unwashed masses, the ordinary struggling Christians around you. We should never come to a place where we don't think we have need of others found at elementary levels of maturity. Nor should be look down on them, or scoff at their childlike ignorance. This is spiritual pride, the ugliest of religious poisons.

"…as you see the day drawing near." The day of the return of Christ is nearer, nearer perhaps than many care to think. Knowing that, we ought to all the more thoughtfully consider how we might stir up one another, being diligent to retain enthusiasm for our assembling together and being part of one another. May the Holy Spirit work within each of us to help us properly understand our role in His Kingdom.

[Christopher]

Very well put, totally forsaking a church setting due to the fact I think it is beneath me or useless is one thing, but not keeping a regular schedule of attendance is another thing. The personal interaction is what the “mutual encouragement and admonition” is all about, if I can find it, otherwise:

1. I just show up at church
2. listen to sermon
3. then go home
4. repeat next Sunday.

I have not been looking, so I suppose I need to do my part.

[SERay]

Repetitive Actions without Value

Great point. I was thinking of the label on a shampoo bottle as I read your bullet list. Soap, lather, rinse, repeat.

I can distinctively relate to your comments. I attended a couple mega churches for a time. Transitions between services was like watching an airport taking on a surge of passengers. As soon as the service was over, the auditorium doors burst open and people trailed out with a look of determination. Feet quickly making a path to the doors with no interaction in route. The appearance had been made, now to get to the car to beat the traffic out.

I am sure there were various reasons and motives, but in large, I personally know that some of these people were just making an appearance to appease God. I was part of study to profile churches as a secret observer years ago, and interviews were part of the study. It was a real eye opener for me. I can't imagine anything more wasteful than making an appearance for religious duty. On the other hand, how internally painful is it too seriously want to make a connection, but not find it?

I am confident the Creator, who is intimately aware of our thoughts, our actions, even the exact hair count on our heads, is able to connect us with a spiritual support line. He doesn’t dilly-dally around with such matters either, because there are critical promises associated such as “not to lose one of those who are mine.” However, I have personally found that it might take a number of connections to finally land the fit. It really comes back to us, how serious are we to prosper in our faith? Because, if we are not sharing closely with others, our Christianity is merely intellectual theology in concept but not life practice.

In humility we know that we are all learning together, whereas no one has arrived, nor shall we during this brief vapor called life.

[Christopher]

Yes, I agree. The Lord Jesus knows me better than I know myself, and knows what I need and want before I even offer the prayer about it. I am confident the Lord Jesus has in mind what is best for me. Thank you so much for your input

[cmnahrwold]

"Who are you to judge someonone else's servant? To HIs own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind". Romans 14:4-5